Seed Keeping with Owen Taylor at TrueLove Seeds
This week on Gritty and Green, Meredith Nutting is joined by Owen Taylor from TrueLove Seeds to discuss the importance of seed keeping and the mission behind the TrueLove Seed catalog. Meredith takes us on a journey into a seed and gives some tips on how to start seeds on your own.
For more information about TrueLove Seeds visit their website: https://trueloveseeds.com/ and subscribe to their podcast: Seeds and Their People
If you want more information about local sustainability go to https://www.greenphl.org
Growing Resources:
Growing Calendar - https://www.almanac.com/gardening/planting-calendar
Native Plants - http://www.bonap.org/
Soil Testing - https://agsci.psu.edu/aasl/soil-testing
Green and Gritty is a podcast about truly urban gardening and sustainable living. Like and subscribe to hear a new episode each week. To submit a listener question send a voice file or email to greenandgritty@coolgoonproductions.com.
Episode Transcription
Nat Sound: dropping popcorn into a pan, sizzling, popping
MEREDITH: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT SOUND? IT’S A HUNDRED FERTILIZED OVULES HEATED UP UNTIL THE STORED STARCHES EXPLODE OUT OF THE PROTECTIVE HULLS. OTHERWISE KNOWN AS POPCORN.
Nat Sound: Chewing popcorn. Mm
MEREDITH: EACH ONE OF THESE LITTLE POPPED CORN KERNELS WAS A SEED. OTHER THAN CONTAINING A DELICIOUS LITTLE SNACK FOR MYSELF, THAT PROTECTIVE SEED HULL HOLDS EVERYTHING A CORN PLANT NEEDS TO START LIFE. AND IF YOU WANT TO LOOK A BIT DEEPER, IT HOLDS AN ANCIENT HISTORY OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION.
Gritty and Green Theme Music Starts
MEREDITH: I’M MEREDITH NUTTING AND ON THIS EPISODE OF GRITTY AND GREEN I’VE GOT OWEN TAYLOR FROM TRUELOVE SEEDS JOINING TO TALK ABOUT HOW OUR CULTURE IS DEEPLY ROOTED THE PLANTS WE GROW. I’LL GIVE YOU SOME TIPS FOR STARTING YOUR OWN SEEDS RIGHT ON YOUR WINDOWSILLS AND ANSWER SOME OF YOUR GARDEN QUESTIONS. BUT FIRST I’M GOING TO TAKE YOU INSIDE A SEED TO SEE JUST WHAT IT’S MADE OF. LET’S GET GROWING!
SO, YOU’VE SEEN THEM, YOU’VE EATEN THEM MAYBE YOU’VE EVEN GROWN THEM – BUT WHAT IS A SEED EXACTLY? WELL, SEEDS ARE THE PRODUCT OF SUCCESSFUL FERTILIZATION OF PLANTS – BASICALLY A PLANT FETUS. EVERY SEED HAS A OUTER SHELL SURROUNDING STORED STARCHES AND THE EMBRYO. ACTUALLY, YOU CAN PROBABLY SEE THESE THINGS IN YOUR OWN PANTRY. GO GRAB A BEAN OR A PEANUT OR EVEN AN AVOCADO PIT. THOSE ARE ALL SEEDS.
SO IF YOU’RE LOOKING AT A BEAN, THE COLORFUL HARD COATING IS THE SHELL. FOR THE PLANT, IT PROTECTS THE EMBRYO UNTIL IT’S READY TO GROW. FOR PEOPLE, IT KEEPS YOUR BEANS FRESH UNTIL YOU ARE READY TO COOK THEM. THE OUTER SHELL IS PRETTY SOLID AND SMOOTH EXCEPT IN ONE SPOT. IT’S BELLYBUTTON– THE HILIUM. IT’S WHERE THE SEED WAS CONNECTED TO ITS PARENT PLANT. AND SOMEWHERE IN THAT HILIUM IS A TEENY PORE WHERE FERTILIZATION ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE. AND NOW IT IS SEALED AND REGULATES WATER ENTERING THE SEED.
OK SO NOW, IF YOU BREAK THAT SEED IN HALF, YOU CAN SEE THE STORED FOOD, THE COTYLEDON – THAT’S THE MAJORITY OF THE SEED. IT CONTAINS THE STARCHES THAT WE EAT AND IS THE PRIMARY REASON THOSE BEANS ARE EVEN ON YOUR SHELF. BUT IT ACTUALLY EXISTS FEED THE PLANT WHEN IT JUST STARTS GROWING.
THEN THERE’S A LITTLE SQUIGGLE. IT LOOKS LIKE A LITTLE ALIEN WORM. THAT’S ACTUALLY THE EMBRYO OF THE PLANT. THAT LITTLE TEENY SQUIGGLE WILL USE THE STARCHES STORED IN THE COTYLEDON TO GROW INTO A ROOT, STEM AND LEAVES.
SO THAT’S THE ANATOMY OF A SEED. BUT, SEEDS ARE SO SO SO MUCH MORE THAN THAT. I SAT DOWN WITH OWEN TAYLOR TO TALK ABOUT THE GREAT EXPANSE OF HUMANITY THAT IS CONTAINED IN THOSE LITTLE SEEDS.
Owen Taylor: So I was working for this private seed collection for four years when I first moved to Philadelphia in 2013 or so and just fell in love with it. Cooking and seed stories and like the deep planting are very involved with producing plants from seed and saving seeds.
MEREDITH: PRIOR TO MOVING TO PHILADELPHIA, OWEN HAD WORKED OVER A DECADE IN THE FOOD JUSTICE MOVEMENT IN NEW YORK AND THE BAY AREA.
Owen Taylor: And so because I had been in the Food Justice Food sovereignty movement for so long, I wanted to bring see my work with keeping back to that work. We started Truelove Seeds as a way to, you know, connect with farmers who were doing cultural preservation work and, you know, community healing work and just kind of mentor people around producing their ancestral seeds to share broadly through a seed catalog model.
MEREDITH: HUMANS HAVE BEEN SAVING SEEDS FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS AS THEY TRANSITIONED FROM A CULTURE OF HUNTING AND GATHERING TO AGRICULTURE. EVERYWHERE WE MIGRATED WE BROUGHT SEEDS IN TOW AS PART OF HUMAN TRADITION. BACK THEN, THEY COULDN’T HAVE KNOWN THEN THAT THE SIMPLE ACT OF PICKING SEEDS HARDY ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND A JOURNEY WOULD TURN INTO A 61.2 BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY WITH ONLY 4 COMPANIES CONTROLLING 60% OF THE MARKET. SPOILER –TRUELOVE SEEDS IS NOT ONE OF THOSE!
Owen Taylor: the first year 2017, we had 12 farms that grew seeds for our catalog as well as our own. You know, we always grew the bulk of our seeds. And those 12, most of them I have known through my work again with Food justice. So really it started with deep personal connections, and that's how we've tried to grow it and expand it. Now we're at 75 farms that we work with around the country. Many of them are immigrant and refugee projects, farm projects, and that's like a big easy. Yes, for us when we're thinking about who to take on as a grower or not because of their distinct focus on their own cultural seeds. And that's the centerpiece, that's the theme of our seed company, is people growing their own ancestral seeds for their cultural communities and their diasporas.
MEREDITH: PEW CHARITABLE TRUSTS’ STATE OF THE CITY RECENTLY REPORTED THAT 15.7% OF PHILADELPHIA’S POPULATION IS MADE UP OF PEOPLE THAT WERE BORN OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES. AND WITH IMMIGRANTS COME ALL SORTS OF NEW FLAVORS!
YOU’VE GOT ITALIAN ON SOUTH 9TH STREET, ETHIOPIAN IN WEST PHILLY, VIETNAMESE ALONG WASHINGTON AVE, AND OF COURSE THERE’S CHINA TOWN. EACH OF THOSE FLAVORS AND CUISINES HAVE RICH CULTURAL TRADITIONS BEHIND THEM.
Owen Taylor: We're asking our growers what seed tell us your story and following their lead. And so with each farm of the 75 farms we work with, that's the question we asked them What's the seed that's most important to your family, to your community? What would you like to contribute?
It's it's really a deep connection to our particular food and broader food ways. A lot of them do come from seeds that people brought with them as they traveled to a new homeland here. And so for example, with the Korean refugees from the mountains of Burma or Myanmar, you know, a lot of them had carried their seeds and soil as part of their tradition. When they move, they take a handful of soil to bring to the new land.
And so in their case, that was the Thai refugee camps. And so they were there a lot of times for ten or 15 years, and the first thing they did was spread the soil, said a prayer, and then we stayed here a long time and planted their traditional seeds. And so the same thing happened when they came here.
MEREDITH: IF YOU DIDN’T KNOW, BRINGING PLANTS OR SEEDS INTO THE UNITED STATES ISN’T STRAIGHT FORWARD AS PUTTING THEM IN YOUR CARRY ON. IN AN EFFORT TO STOP PEST AND PATHOGENS OR AGGRESSIVE WEEDS FROM BEING MISTAKENLY INTRODUCED, THE USDA REQUIRES ALL AGRICULTURE PRODUCTS TO BE DECLARED TO US CUSTOMS AND BOARDER PROTECTION OFFICIALS OR RISK A FINE OF $1,000. THEY SUGGEST YOU PRESENT A RECEIPT AND ORIGINAL PACKAGING OR YOUR SEEDS MAY BE CONFISCATED. RECEIPTS AREN’T REALLY A THING WHEN SAVING SEEDS FROM THE GARDEN IN THE REFUGE CAMP.
Owen Taylor: For a lot of them, the seeds get confiscated because it's not quite legal to travel across national borders with seeds. But there's always somebody here, whether it's in recent, past or distant past, who was able to continue their food ways through either bringing the seeds themselves or finding them within their communities. In our catalog, we offer seeds that were grown in our soil, but sometimes it's only been a few generations that they've been here, and that's helping people to have more consistent access to try to carry them on where, you know, every year to these traditional seeds without having to go, you know, resort to smuggling, which we also call snuggling, to kind of take the edge off because it's very sweet, you know, thing to want to bring your beloved plants here.
So without having to resort to snuggling, you know, we want to have these varieties available on this continent in a safe and legal way. One of the most important seeds in our catalog is molokhia, which is the Arabic word for what we call jute or Egyptian spinach. And we've learned over the years since we were first introduced to it from a Palestinian chef friend who gave us the first molokhia and some Syrian friends, that it's also super important in places like the Philippines and Nigeria and Haiti.
MEREDITH: EGYPTIAN SPINACH ISN’T A SPINACH AT ALL, IT’S ACTUALLY IN THE SAME FAMILY AS OKRA. IT CAN BE USED TO MAKE TEA, SOUP, SALAD, MEDICINE, AND FIBER. A VERY VERSITILE PLANT AND GROWS WELL IN ZONES 5-11.
Owen Taylor: And it's it's only available here frozen and dried. And for people who grew up with it, it was a family experience to go and harvest or buy the greens from a farmer, take them home and pluck them one by one, you know, the leaves and then and then cook them up. And so you just can't get that, you know, from getting at a store and it doesn't taste the same from getting it at a store.
And so, you know that that's why this is so important to do yourself in your garden, on your farm, or buying from a local farmer. It's it's not an experience that can be replicated. You know, it's one thing to find it in the frozen section or dry it on the shelf or even fresh, if you're lucky. You know, if your foodways have been here for a while, but it's another to have a hand and bring it yourself, because then you get to know the plant from seed to seed very intimately. You get to know when to harvest it. You get a really more intimate and extensive sense of what these foods mean and how they got here and what it takes to make them. You know, you're plucking the leaves one by one at the kitchen table. You're selling the beans one by one on the porch. That's a really visceral experience that stays with you. And so that's why it's so important to to grow them.
MEREDITH: OF COURSE, IN ORDER TO GROW THESE ANCESTRIAL SEEDS YOU NOT ONLY HAVE TO HAVE THE ACTUAL SEEDS, YOU NEED TO HAVE A PLACE TO GROW THEM.
Owen Taylor: I think the biggest challenge is finding land, you know, and keeping it. That's number one.
MEREDITH: MOST URBAN GARDENS WEREN’T PLANNED INTENTIONALLY BY BIOPHILIC CITY PLANNERS.
Owen Taylor: I was for the most part, you know, black and brown, working class white people, reclaiming spaces that had been abandoned to make these beautiful oases and community gathering places. And so you know that's the context for a lot of the modern urban farming work. And I think it's becoming less and less known as we kind of move into the future, that that's the groundwork that we're working with, And as we see more and more development in cities like ours and New York and so on, we're losing those spaces left and right. So a lot of the places where people are are growing in the city, these hard earned, you know, gardens are just disappearing to development. And so that's one of the biggest problems.
MEREDITH: BUT DESPITE THE CHALLENGES OF FINDING A PLACE TO GROW FOOD IN AN URBAN AREA, THERE ARE SOME BEAUTIFUL BENEFITS.
Owen Taylor: Some of the opportunities are that there there's so many amazing people in Philly doing this work. I mean, we've been so lucky to work with the farms and gardens that we've worked with as seed producers, as partners in different projects. We're doing it. So I think as a company focused on cultural, we were just lucky to be in a city where so many people are doing that work in the gardens from so many different cultures and so I think that's one of the big pluses of Philadelphia gardening. It's like you can go from a Puerto Rican for a Puerto Rican garden or a square, you know, neighborhood project to, you know, now really that resilient roots farm in Camden, just over the bridge. You know, they're really focused on Vietnamese crops, but they also have other neighbors. They're growing their traditional crops. And it's just a really great city for finding unique varieties that people are really looking for.
MEREDITH: WITH VARIETIES PLANTED TOGETHER AS A REFLECTION OF CULTURE AND HERITAGE, THE DIVERSITY IN THESE GARDENS IS MIRRORED IN THE TRUELOVE SEED CATALOG.
Owen Taylor: So we have like a catalog that may have a lot of unfamiliar varieties to someone who just stumbles across it, but a lot of familiar varieties to people from particular parts of the world where we've had these connections that we've been building. And so it's unusual in that the theme is ancestral seeds and we kind of organize it through our collections by particular parts of the world.
Our African Diaspora collection, which at this point includes the continent of Africa and the American South, uh, varieties that are important to African-Americans and African immigrants. We have three different Asian collections from different parts of Asia and so on. You know, we have a Philadelphia collection where we focus on varieties that are historic to this, to our city.
We have an Italian collection because, you know, that's one of my focuses ancestrally is southern Italian. See that Irish? And so, you know, it's very cultural focused. So if someone comes to our website, they'll see that we have a podcast with stories about particular seeds. They'll see that we have all these diasporic collections that are our listings oftentimes include long stories. So I think it's unusual in that way.
MEREDITH: THERE’S EVEN A COLLECTION FOR FOLKS THAT MAY NOT HAVE OR KNOW ABOUT THEIR ANCESTRAL FOODWAY TRADITIONS.
Owen Taylor: We have a Philadelphia collection where we focus on varieties that are historic to this, to our city.Yeah, the Philadelphia collection, I think we were kind of, we were kind of inspired to start it with initial conversations with the Philadelphia Museum of Art, who were interested in featuring stories. Philadelphia stories.
MEREDITH: OWEN ALREADY HAD SOME PHILADELPHIA SEEDS FROM HIS WORK WITH THE ROUGHWOOD SEED COLLECTION. THE STORY ABOUT DR WILLIAM WOYS WEAVER AND HIS FAMILY’S SEED COLLECTION IS IN ITSELF FASCINATING. THE SHORT VERSION – IT STARTED IN 1932 IN WEST CHESTER BY H RALPH WEAVER. AND A DECADE AFTER HIS DEATH WAS REDISCOVERED BY HIS GRANDSON, WILLIAM. IT NOW HAS OVER 5,000 VARIETIES OF HEIRLOOM PLANTS – EACH WITH ITS OWN STORY.
Owen Taylor: The old pepper pot pepper, which is a Horrace Pippin Variety horse. Koopman is an African American folk artist who's featured at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. And it's pretty widely known now, actually, just buy this portrait at Target this weekend.
MEREDITH: IT'S TRUE TARGET IS SELLING PRINTS OF HORRACE’S SELF PORTRAIT FOR $28.
Owen Taylor: he's this great artist who featured just scenes from his life, which included a lot of World War One imagery, but also civil rights imagery. And just Westchester. He's from Westchester, Pennsylvania, you know, Quaker meetings. And he would bring seeds to Ralph Weaver in exchange for doing and therapy for his work injury. And so there's all these Pippin Peppers that survived through Dr. Weaver's collection.
He found that in the 1960s, after his grandfather died in a deep freeze and started growing them out and learned more of the story from his grandmother and so on. So there's Pittman peppers in there. All pepper pot is is actually Pepper Soup is featured in a Pippin artwork at the museum currently. And so that's a great Philadelphia story.
MEREDITH: PIPPIN ALSO SHARED THE FISH PEPPER, ALSO IN TRUELOVE SEED’S PHILADELPHIA COLLECTION, WHICH CAN BE TRACED BACK TO CARIBBEAN. THE PEPPER MADE ITS WAY TO THE MIDATLANTIC REGION WHERE IT BECAME A STAPLE IN CHESAPEAK SEAFOOD DISHES AND GROWN ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY BY BLACK FARMERS. OVERTIME IT FELL OUT OF POPULARITY AND NEARLY WENT EXTINCT – EXCEPT HORACE HAD SHARED HIS SEEDS AND NOW EVERY FISH PEPPER CAN TRACE ITS ORIGINS BACK TO THE SEEDS IN THE ROUGHWOOD COLLECTION.
SO THAT’S ONE PHILADELPHIA STORY TOLD THROUGH SEEDS.
Owen Taylor: And we have various Wednesday varieties that are in that collection as well, since that's the original people of this area
And so there's three beans in that collection. The Hannah Freeman Bean, which is named for a wind up a woman in the 1700s in West Chester who was a basket weaver and a farmer and this being, you know, is said to have come from her to Doctor Weaver's grandfather. Eventually, through family connections there there is the blue shark, the max and bean from your neighborhood, Fish town, Port Richmond, Kensington area, the second Mexican River.
This is a blue bean. Purple blue bean. Uh, we're not be bean, that is, you know, said to have been used with cornmeal, blue cornmeal. So maybe with our blues, blue 2000 corn to make like a corn bread and mush with corn and beans. And there's also the purple confessing beans. And of course for West Philly, Southwest Philly, there's a whole neighborhood called Kings thing, which I used to live in.
So I initially grew it there in you know, very meaningful to bring it from my mentors collection back to Kings, that thing.
Those we're not big ratings. We send a percentage of our sales to the Nanticoke will not be tried in South Jersey and we can send seeds for free to unhappy people all over the U.S. and Canada, especially in Oklahoma and parts of Canada. We're mostly not the people are now.
MEREDITH: THERE ARE 15 VARIEITES OF PLANTS IN THE PHILADELPHIA COLLECTION AND THAT’S JUST ONE OF THE 11 COLLECTIONS YOU’LL FIND ON TRUELOVE SEEDS WEBSITE. SO ARE YOU WONDERING HOW YOU GO ABOUT SAVING YOUR OWN SEEDS?
Owen Taylor: I like to demystify seed saving. We call it seed keeping to kind of follow in the tradition of some Indigenous seed keepers here and worldwide who use that terminology for this very special role.
That's not just saving seeds but saving the culture, the stories, the traditions, the recipes, you know, where they came from, who handed them to you more than just the genetic material. And so seed keeping I like to demystify it because anybody can do it. You know, sometimes people get so frozen up by fear that they're going to do it wrong, that they don't do it.
And it's really important that we all keep seeds. It's super easy. It's ancient again, it's 10,000 years old. You know, this practice of saving seeds and the dawn of agriculture, I think that really marks the beginning when we started saving seeds and planting them. And so it's this ancient human practice.
MEREDITH: ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS EVEN USED SEEDS AS CURRANCY – UNTIL SILVER CAME ABOUT IN AROUND 640 BCE. BUT EVEN THEN SEEDS WERE A FORM OF WEALTH TO AN AGRICULTURALLY BASED SOCIETY. SO SAVING SEEDS FROM ONE YEAR TO THE NEXT WAS COMMONPLACE.
Owen Taylor: So it can be as easy as picking the dried plant material, shaking it in the bag, saving it until spring and planting it again. That's actually a very good way to save seeds. But if you want to get into it, technically, if you want to be a deep plant nerd like myself and my coworkers, then you know, I'd be happy to share some tips with people. And there's a lot of resources out there like Seem to Seed by Suzanne Ashworth, the seed Garden from Seed Savers Exchange. So many videos and online resources. We have a YouTube channel through Love Seeds on YouTube where I try to look at specific types of seed saving, whether it's tomatoes or dry seeded things like the cabbage family. So there's a lot of ways you can dive in deep.
MEREDITH: ONE OF MY FAVORITE DEEP DIVES IS INTO THE SEED VAULT IN SVALBARD, NORWAY. IT’S A BACKUP OF THE 1,700 PLUS GENEBANKS WORLDWIDE ON A ISLAND OFF OF NORWAY TOWARDS THE NORTH POLE. THE SEEDS ARE STORED IN THREE PLY FOIL PACKAGING, IN BOXES STACKED IN A VAULT BUILT DEEP IN THE PERMAFROST AT -0.4 DEGREES FARENHEIT.
BEFORE THE SEEDS GET TO THE VAULT THOUGH THEY ARE USUALLY GROWN IN CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENTS BY RESEARCH ORGANIZATIONS AND BOTANICAL INSTITUTIONS FOR THE PURPOSE OF PRESERVING THE GENETICS. THEY ARE DOCUMENTED AND CLEANED FROM ANY OTHER PLANT MATERIAL OR PATHOGENS. THEY ARE ALSO TESTED FOR HEALTH AND VIABILITY BEFORE THEY ARE PACKED INTO AIRTIGHT CONTAINERS AND SHIPPED TO THE VAULT.
ALL OF THIS IS NECESSARY WHEN YOU’RE TRYING TO PRESERVE BOTANICAL DIVERSITY ON PLANET RIDDLED CLIMATE CHANGE AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS. BUT SEED KEEPING FROM ONE SEASON TO THE NEXT DOESN’T NEED TO BE THAT HARD.
Owen Taylor: The basics are and what I like to tell people is that you basically you're becoming a doula or a midwife for the plant. You know, you're now involved in its reproduction in a very special, intimate way. Only are you part of them just from this long term care, but you're shaping them whether you realize it or not.
You know, it's really important to think about which ones you're selecting for seed. If you're not thinking about it, you're still shaping them unintentionally. Like if you take the seeds from the ugliest worst plants because you don't want to eat them, your next year's plants are going to be the ugliest worst plants, offspring, you know, if you're taking them from the most beautiful, delicious plants because you want to replicate that, you're shaping them towards the most beautiful, productive, delicious plants.
And so where as the midwife, you know, we also have a huge hand in helping these seeds adapt to our particular garden and our particular tastes. So that's one of the biggest benefits of getting into this, is you start to improve your crop dramatically year after year if you make your selections carefully. Yea it’s an important relationship.
MEREDITH: ALL OF THE PRODUCE ON THE SHELVES WAS CREATED BY THIS KIND OF SELECTION. BY CHOOSING PLANTS WITH ONE TRAIT OVER ANOTHER TO PASS ON WE’VE CULTIVATED CORN WITH BIG EARS OF KERNELS, WATERMELONS WITH MORE FLESH THAN SEEDS AND TURNED ONE SPECIES – BRASSICA OLERACEA – INTO KALE, BROCCOLI, CAULIFLOWER AND BRUSSELSPROUTS JUST BY SELECTING DIFFERENT TRAITS OVER GENERATIONS. BUT BACK TO ACTUALLY SAVING THE SEEDS.
Owen Taylor: And so you have to think about the pregnancy of the plant and when has it kind of reached its turn? Right. You don't want to take the seed too early. That'll be a premature baby. You don't want to take it too late because it's the birds will get to it or the wind and the rain, right.
Or it might start sprouting in the pod. And so you want to really pay attention to the plants that you love. Watch as they the flowers, the fruits, their seeds, and just really kind of put some faith in your own observation skills.
Think about when will that seed have taken what it needs from the mother plant, you know, And so a lot of times that looks like the stem that connects to the fruit or the seed pod turning brown, especially with dry seeded crops.
That's the umbilical cord, right? That little stem going to the seed. So I like to call it the umbilical cord. When it's dried up, nothing else is going from the plant to the seed. Right. It's time to come off. That's not true For every plant, like with tomatoes, you're taking the seeds when you would eat the tomato,
MEREDITH: A GENERAL RULE OF THUMB IS THAT WITH FRUITING PLANTS, THE SEEDS ARE READY TO HARVEST WHEN THE FRUIT IS OVER RIPE BUT NOT ROTTING. WITH LEGUMES LIKE BEANS AND PEAS THE PODS SHOULD BE DRIED ON THE PLANT. AND WITH FLOWERING LETTUCES AND OTHER GREENS THE SEEDS SHOULD BE COLLECTED WHEN THE PODS ARE A BIT DRY AND TAN BUT BEFORE THEY POP OPEN.
Owen Taylor: Then that's one of the best things you can do is harvest at the right time because you don't want to try to plant an immature seed, right? Or a sprouted seed. You have the highest germination rate. If your timing is right. You also want to think very carefully about moisture because once the seed comes out, whether you've gone through fermentation with tomatoes or cucumbers to get that gentle off the seed or you've taken a dry, you know, kale seed out, we lay them out on paper paper bags or something like that labeled with the date and what it is that people forget despite their best intentions. And we leave them for two weeks, no matter what kind of seed it is in our basement seed room at our farm where we have a fan, we have a dehumidifier. The dryer, you get it into a jar or a packet. The bit longer at a store, you know, sometimes at years two it's left the shelf life to get it the right dryness. Harvesting at the right time, getting it really dry before storage are two of the most important pieces.
MEREDITH: ONE OF THE OTHER IMPORTANT ASPECT OF SEED SAVING IS HOW TO AVOID HYBRIDIZATION – THAT IS WHEN YOU CROSS TWO DIFFERENT VARIETIES OF THE SAME SPECIES.
Owen Taylor: know is that a concern. Big question for especially urban gardeners who have very limited space or who share space like in a community garden with other people or their neighbors are growing the same crops as them?
MEREDITH: MOST HYBRIDIZATION HAPPENS WHEN PLANTS THAT HAVE JUST MALE OR FEMALE FLOWERS ARE POLLINATED FROM ANOTHER PLANT OF THE SAME SPECIES. SO THINK OF THAT BUMBLE BEE GOING FROM PLANT TO PLANT. IF THEY’RE ALL THE SAME VARIETY NO PROBLEM, BUT IF THEY’RE DIFFERENT VARIEITIES YOU WILL LIKELY GET HYBRIDIZATION.
Owen Taylor: so if you're saving tomato seeds and your neighbors saving tomato seeds is highly, it's likely that you will get some hybridization accidentally. You know that if you're trying to save this beautiful cherry tomato and they have this big honkin like yellow slicer that the offspring will have some combination of those genes unless you're able to isolate them or separate them by some distance.
MEREDITH: NOW, MOST TOMATOES HAVE FLOWERS CONTAINING BOTH MALE AND FEMALE PARTS. THEY DON’T HYBRIDIZE EASILY BECAUSE THE FERTILIZATION HAPPENS BEFORE THE FLOWER EVEN OPENS. BUT IT’S NOT IMPOSSIBLE FOR HYBRIDIZATION TO HAPPEN. AND YOU WON’T KNOW UNTIL THE NEXT YEAR AFTER YOU PLANT THE SEEDS, CARE FOR THE GROWING SEEDLINGS AND START TO SEE THE TOMOTOES DEVELOP. THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU FINDOUT THAT WHAT YOU THOUGHT WAS GOING TO BE A CHERRY TOMATO IS ACTUALLY A CROSS WITH THAT BIG HONKIN’ YELLOW SLICER.
Owen Taylor: And in our case, we give them 50 feet, especially for older heirloom tomatoes. They have these flower structures and more open to the bees and more likely to move between them and pass pollen. And so, you know, some people grow tomatoes right next to each other of different varieties and see very little crossing because they're they are a self pollinating plant primarily meaning that within that flower, which is both male and female, in this case of the tomato, the pollen can go from that flower to itself to the ovaries of its own flower before pollinators get involved.
So that's that's why you look at the species. So there's charts out there and if you look at isolation, distance, seed saving, you know, charts will pop up that show you that recommended distance to avoid hybridization. If you want to be a creative gardener and intentionally hybridize things just to see what you'll get, which is a fun thing to do to you can ignore those and put them right next to each other, you know, and see what offspring you get. So it's not like hybridization is automatically bad, you know, it's really what your intentions are, what your hopes are.
MEREDITH: IN THIS WAY WE DOULAS OF THE SEED, MIDWIVES OF THE PLANT – PLAY MATCHMAKER AS WELL. BY CHOOSING PLANTS AND GROWING THEM TOGETHER WE CAN CREATE WHOLE NEW VARIETIES THAT NEVER EXISTED. THAT’S HOW WE GOT THE PLANTS WE CHERISH NOW, THROUGH TRIAL AND ERROR AND LEARNING BY EXPERIENCE.
Owen Taylor: So I think people really should just start saving seeds, whether it's their from their garden and from wild plants, because the more you save seeds, the more you have an intuition, really, or an understanding of what goes into plant propagation. And I think it just helps you in the long run as you see what happens from your real experience.
MEREDITH: IT ALSO HELPS US SAVE THE DIVERSITY IN FOOD PLANTS THAT HUMANS BRED OVER THE LAST 10 THOUSAND YEARS. IN THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS OR SO WE’VE LOST 75% OF OUR VEGETABLE VARIETIES. A BIG REASON IS THE MOVE TO PLANT MONOCULTURES AND VARATIES THAT CAN BE MASS GROWN AND TRANSPORTED.
SO BY DIGGING THROUGH SEED COLLECTIONS, CHOOSING VARITIES THAT AREN’T FOUND IN THE SUPERMARKET AND GROWING AND SHARING SEEDS YOU ARE BECOMING PART OF THE GLOBAL SEED LIBRARY.
Owen Taylor: I think people are generally are really excited about the idea of heirlooms. You know, they're like, oh, cool old varieties, you know? But a lot of times when we're talking about heirloom seeds, it's just kind of vague notion of it's old. But why is it important? You know, it's great that things have been around a long time for us.
We look at it kind of turn heirloom on its head or broaden the definition in looking at, okay, whose heirlooms are we talking about? You know, whose family stories are important and whose family stories should be told and and multiplied.
How do we make sure that, you know, our future generations have access to this taste of home that's so important to your sense of self, you know, and so that's by saving these seeds, there's so much culture wrapped up in agriculture. I mean, that's the that's what they say, trying to remember who is attributed to. But, you know, there's no culture without agriculture.
MEREDITH: THAT WAS OWEN TAYLOR FROM TRUELOVE SEEDS. YOU CAN FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THEIR WORK ON THEIR WEBSITE TRUELOVESEEDS.ORG AND HEAR THEIR FARMER’S AMAZING STORIES ON THEIR PODCAST, SEEDS AND THEIR PEOPLE AVAILABLE ON ALL THE PODCAST PLATFORMS. OH AND THAT QUOTE “THERE’S NO CULTURE WITHOUT AGRICULTURE” IS ATTRIBUTED TO RAS ODUNO TARIK A HORTICULTURALIST AND LEGENDARY IN WASHINGTON DC.
SO, ARE YOU WONDERING HOW YOU GET THOSE LITTLE SEEDS TO GROW? SEED STARTING IS BOTH SIMPLE AND COMPLEX AT THE SAME TIME. IF YOU’VE TRIED AND FAILED, DON’T GET TOO DOWN ON YOURSELF.
PLANTS PRODUCE SEVERAL THOUSAND SEEDS SO THAT MAYBE A COUPLE CAN SURVIVE TO MATURE UNTIL THEY CAN REPRODUDE. THOSE ODDS AREN’T GREAT. AS GARDENERS, WE WANT TO UP THOSE ODDS BY CREATING THE EXACT RIGHT CONDITIONS FOR GERMINATION AND GROWTH IN A WORLD WITH DROUGHTS, HEAVY RAINS, LOOTING SQUIRRELS, TRIPS TO THE SHORE – YOU KNOW LIFE!
ALL SEEDS NEED THREE THINGS TO GERMINATE – WATER, OXYGEN AND THE RIGHT TEMPERATURE. SOME SEEDS NEED LIGHT TO GERMINATE AND SOME NEED DARK. SOME SEEDS – PARTICULARLY NATIVE SPECIES ALSO NEED A COLD PERIOD BEFORE THEY’LL GERMINATE. THIS IS CALLED STRATIFICAITON. AND A FEW SEEDS LIKE RAMPS NEED A WARM WET PERIOD FOLLOWED BY A COLD PERIOD. ALL THESE PARITCULAR CONDITIONS ENSURE THAT THE SEEDS WILL GERMINATE WHEN THE CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT FOR THE PLANT TO GROW. FOR EXAMPLE, IF WILDFLOWER SEEDS THAT MATURED IN THE FALL GERMINATED WITHOUT A COLD STRATIFICATION, THEY WOULD BE LITTLE SEEDLINGS IN THE DEAD OF WINTER INSETAD OF THE SPRING. SO THESE SEEDS NEED A COLD PERIOD TO BREAK DOWN THEIR SEED COAT.
BUT WHETHER THEY NEED THE COLD TEMPERATURES OR NOT, THE PROCESS OF GERMINATION STARTS WHEN THE SEED BEGINS TO ABSORB WATER THROUGH THAT LITTLE BELLYBUTTON – THE HILIUM. THAT PROCESS IS CALLED IMBIBITION. THE CELLS START TO SWELL AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE THE SEEDS GET BIGGER. NOW THERE’S A LOT GOING ON. SUGARS START BREAKING DOWN TO NOURISH THE EMBRYO – THAT LITTLE SQUIGGLE IN YOUR BEAN SEED. IT STARTS GROWING INTO A STEM AND A ROOTS. AT THIS POINT, ONCE THE LEAVES ARE ABOVE THE SOIL THE GERMINATED SEEDLINGS NEED LIGHT. SOME NEED BRIGHT LIGHT AND SOME INDIRECT LIGHT. BUT IN ORDER TO MAKE THEIR OWN FOOD THEY NEED TO PHOTOSYNTHESIZE AND THAT REQUIRES LIGHT. AS THEY GET BIGGER THE SEEDLINGS WILL ALSO NEED NUTRIENTS – TYPCICALLY THEY GET THESE FROM MINERALS AND COMPOST IN THE SOIL. AND OF COURSE THEY’LL CONTINUE TO NEED WATER.
SO HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT CONDITIONS THE SEEDS YOU’RE PLANTING NEED? BASICALLY, YOU LOOK IT UP – THERE ARE SO MANY TYPES OF SEEDS AND NEARLY ALL OF THEM HAVE EXTENSIVE DIRECTIONS OF HOW TO GET THEM TO GERMINATE ONLINE. BUT KNOWING WHEN TO START SEEDS IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS KNOWING HOW TO GET THEM TO GERMINATE.
FARMER’S ALMANAC HAS A GREAT RESOURCE THAT OFFERS A PLANTING CALENDAR BASED ON YOUR ZIP CODE AND SPECIFIC PLANTING ZONE. I’LL PUT THAT IN THE SHOW NOTES.
OK SO THAT FEELS LIKE ENOUGH OF PLANTS 101 TODAY. LET’S GET TO SOME OF YOUR QUESTIONS!
Caller 1: Here’s my question. People always talk about planting native seeds and that sounds amazing and I nod along like I know what they’re talking about but in reality i have no idea where to start. How to figure out what these native plants are that are supposed to be so good for the environment and where do you find them?
MEREDITH: EXCELLENT QUESTION. I COULD DO A WHOLE EPISODE ON NATIVE PLANTS – IN FACT THAT’S A GREAT IDEA, LET ME RIGHT THAT DOWN…
SO NATIVE PLANTS ARE BASICALLY THE PLANTS THAT EXISTED IN YOUR AREA BEFORE COLONIZERS CAME. THEY’RE THE FOUNDATION FOR EVERY DIFFERENT ECOSYSTEM AROUND THE PLANET. THEY FEED THE INSECTS THAT THEN FEED BIRDS AND OTHER ANIMALS. AND ALL THESE LIVING THINGS EVOLVED TOGETHER IN BALANCE. NOW, IN A LOT OF AREAS NATIVE PLANTS ARE ON A DECLINE AND THAT AFFECTS THE WHOLE ECOSYSTEM. SO CHOOSING TO GROW THEM IS VITAL FOR THE HEALTH OF OUR PLANET.
TO FIND OUT WHICH PLANTS ARE NATIVE TO YOUR AREA YOU CAN CHECK OUT YOUR LOCAL DEPARTMENT OF CONSERVATION AND NATURAL RESOURCES -- AT LEAST IN PENNSYLVIA.
THERE ARE ALSO WEBSITES LIKE DOUG TALLAMY’S HOMEGROWN NATIONAL PARK AND THE XERCES SOCIETY. IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DIG DEEP YOU CAN CHECK OUT THE BIOTA OF NORTH AMERICA PROGRAM’S WEBSITE – BONAP.ORG. I’LL PUT ALL OF THESE SITES IN THE SHOW NOTES.
TO FIND THEM IN YOUR AREA YOU WANT TO FIND A NURSERY THAT SPECIALIZES IN NATIVE PLANTS – THE BONUS IS THAT THE STAFF THERE WILL BE KNOWLEDGABLE ABOUT NATIVE SPECIES AND WHAT WOULD WORK WELL IN YOUR GARDEN.
OK NEXT QUESTION!
Caller 2: Hi. Thanks so much for taking my question. I was just wondering about lead levels in the soil and if you have recommendations about where people can find out about them. And then if there are high lead levels what are things that folks can do to start to mediate that, is there a timeline for growing food in leaded soil, that kind of thing. Thanks so much. Really appreciate it.
MEREDITH: GREAT QUESTION ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE GARDENING IN A CITY LIKE PHILADELPHIA. GARDENING IN CITY SOIL IS A CONCERN FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS – GENERALLY YOU’LL FIND THAT IT’S NOT VERY GOOD SOIL FOR PLANTS TO GROW. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY IT CAN BE HARMFUL. IF YOUR GARDEN IS ON A FORMER INDUSTRIAL SITE, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE COULD BE HEAVY METALS, LIKE LEAD, THAT LINGER IN THE SOIL. WHEN YOU DIG IN THAT GROUND YOU CAN INADVERTANTLY INHALE OR INGEST LEAD CARRYING SOIL PARTICLES. LEAD CAN ALSO BE ABSORBED BY THE PLANTS INTO THEIR ROOTS, LEAVES AND FRUIT.
NOW, HOW MUCH OF THESE HEAVY METALS IS ABSORBED INTO THE PLANT AND WHAT KIND RISK EATING FRUITS AND VEGETABLES GROWN IN CITY SOIL ACTUALLY POSES DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK BUT THERE IS NO SAFE EXPOSURE TO LEAD SO IT’S BEST TO BE CAUTIOUS. SO HOW DO WE GROW VEGETABLES IN THE CITY? FIRST, FIND OUT THE HISTORY OF THE LAND YOU ARE GROWING ON.
SECOND, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY – DO A SOIL TEST. MOST EXTENSION OFFICES WILL DO THEM. IN PENNSYLVANIA YOU CAN FIND OUT HOW TO DO THEM, WHERE TO SEND THEM, AND HOW TO INTERPURATE THE RESULTS AT THE PENN EXTENSION WEBSITE. AGAIN, CHECK THE SHOW NOTES FOR THAT LINK. KNOWING THE HEAVY METAL CONTENT OF THE SOIL THAT’S THERE WILL GIVE YOU AN IDEA IF ITS SAFE TO BE DIGGING AROUND, WALKING AROUND, OR LETTING YOUR KIDS PLAY IN THE AREA.
REGARDLESS OF THOSE RESULTS THOUGH, YOU’LL PROBALBY WANT TO BE PLANTING YOUR FOOD CROPS IN RAISED BEDS. IT’S THE BEST WAY TO MAKE SURE THE SOIL ISN’T CONTAMINATED AND THAT ITS FULL OF THE NUTRIENTS PLANTS NEED.
I HOPE THOSE ANSWERS HELP! AND IF YOU HAVE GARDEN RELATED QUESTIONS, PLEASE SEND THEM TO ME AT MEREDITH AT COOL GOON PRODUCTIONS.COM.
THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME. A VERY SPECIAL THANKS TO OWEN TAYLOR AT TRUELOVE SEEDS. I HOPE YOU CHECK OUT THEIR CATALOG AND JOIN ME AGAIN NEXT WEEK FOR A NEW EPISODE OF GRITTY AND GREEN. GRITTY AND GREEN IS PRESENTED BY GREEN PHILLY. IN COLLABORATION WITH COOL GOON PRODUCTIONS. IT WAS WRITTEN, DIRECTED AND EDITED BY ME, MEREDITH NUTTING. THEME MUSIC BY KAZUYA. IF YOU WANT MORE INFORMATION ABOUT LOCAL SUSTAINABILITY GO TO GREENPHL.COM